Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of Brian Moss's Guitar: The Raven
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@square_slices said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
@andrewthomas @damian
To Andrew: ranch or bleu cheese?
To Damian: you're disgustingNeither are very good for gluing woods together…
I could learn from Damian's mistake and make my answer "bleu cheese", but maybe that is what you were planning all along... So I think my only option from here is to make the only indisputable choice: steak sauce.
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@andrewthomas love that sauce
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@dontjudgedave said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
> How did you get started as a Luthier?Thank you for your kind words!
My great-grandfather was a violin maker, and much of his unfinished violins were left to my grandfather. My grandfather was an amazing craftsman and could fix or build just about anything, but for some reason he never followed in his father's footsteps.
So growing up, there was always this unfinished history living in my grandparent's basement that I was very interested in. During my holiday visits, I’d secretly take down the violins and go through old boxes and look at all the small handmade tools. This definitely planted a seed in my head at a very young age.
There was one summer in my college years where my cousin and I bought a book, the bare minimum hand tools needed, and all the woods needed and attempted to build a classical guitar from scratch. We never finished that guitar, and I think my cousin still has all the parts laying around his house. At that point, I felt like I needed a more formal educational environment in which to learn this trade.
In 2009, I sold most of my possessions bought a truck, and hauled a small trailer from Lincoln, NE down to Phoenix in 2009 and began schooling a Roberto-Venn. After that, I worked for a local repair shop for a few years where I met Michael Collins. Mike and I started collaborating as luthiers, and he showed me everything he knows about Selmer Maccaferri guitars (gypsy jazz acoustics) and arch top guitars. We also joined forces and built and experimented with high-end fingerstyle steel string acoustic guitars. Check out Leuka Guitars to see those.
In 2013, I met Brian and Spafford, and you know that story now…
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@andrewthomas said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
@uconnwes said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
How did the Raven come about? Interested in Andrew's relationship with Brian and how they collaborated on the amazing sounding axe.I saw my first Spafford show in the summer of 2013, after @Andrew-Beckius (who pretty much introduces everyone to everyone/everything here in the AZ music scene) for months kept saying, “You have to check out Spafford! You must!” Eventually, my wife, Melinda, and I did just that, and needless to say we were blown away… We saw them every chance we had that summer and fall and eventually, I couldn’t hold back my desire to talk to Brian about his guitars and the possibility of making him a custom guitar.
Melinda and I just got married in October, so I was standing a little taller - a little bit high on my horse - feeling good about myself that year. We went the the 11/24/13 show at the Sail Inn, and I remember my conversation with Melinda that night going something like, “Brian is insanely good. He needs a custom guitar, now. Why is he just playing a Gibson like everyone else?”
I am fairly shy around new people (except maybe behind the mask of a costume), so I needed a little help. With Melinda’s encouragement (and the help of maybe a little too much liquid courage) I went up to Brian after a show and somehow managed tell him what I do and get some info. I actually still have the note saved on my phone:
“November 24, 2013 at 1:21am
booking@spafford.net
Guitar
Les Paul and 339.”
I like the dedicated line for the word “guitar”, just in case I forgot the subject of our conversation.
Brian was really receptive to the idea of a custom guitar but had no idea when we could make it happen. In the meantime we worked out a deal where I would become their local guitar tech in exchange for Melinda and I getting into the shows for free. I’d also learn how Spafford works in case the needed a road tech in the future and I’d find ways I could help. This allowed some time before shows for Brian and I to talk about his current rig and his ideal guitar. Some shows I would bring guitars that I built or had and he would say what he likes and doesn’t like, and that sort of became our groove for 2014. We shared our ideas and learned a lot from each other.
It wasn’t until the fall of 2014 that Brian’s wife Nicole reached out to me and said she wants me to build Brian a guitar for his 30 birthday, but with one catch: it needs to be a surprise. I should have known it was coming becasue at many shows prior Nicole would always say something like, “You two have been talking about this guitar for a while now. It’s going to happen, so you better get ready!”
The whole surprise factor to this equation made the process interesting and fun to say the least. I had already drawn up some concept designs and narrowed down quite a few aspect of the build, but we still needed answers from Brian. Nicole and I were constantly hounding him with very specific questions about guitars. She was even going through guitar calendars and books: “That ebony binding looks really good on the walnut body, right, Brian? Much better than the maple binding, right? And those smaller pearl dots on the fingerboard, rather than those big Gibson ones, yes?” It was that obvious… but Brian is always such a busy bee that I’m pretty sure we could have said “Andrew is ordering tuners for your custom guitar and wants to know if you like gold or nickel hardware…” and may have still gotten away with it.Something about this story is adorable to me. Thinking about you guys plotting (positively) behind his back, and also knowing Brian's nature... I can see it unfolding. Very very cool.
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@andrewthomas said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
@uconnwes said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
Did they noodle on design details for days or did Brian provide some general guidance and Andrew ran with it?Brian wanted an amalgamation of his two guitars, his Les Paul double cutaway and his 339. He preferred the tone that he got from the 339 semi-hollow body and its pickups, but missed the 24 frets and playability of his Les Paul.
As far as design goes, I had to follow some rules but Brian always had an open mind and trusted that I knew what I was doing. Certain parts of the guitar had to be symmetrical (the headstock with 3+3 tuners, fretboard inlay dots, f-hole placement, etc.). As for the body shape, I really wanted to design something that suited Brian’s playing style, sort of an aggressive yet elegant combination.Well said about his playing style, and clearly the guitar is an amazing expression of, and tool for, that style.
Can you (if you get the chance) elaborate on WHY Brian wanted the 3+3, the f-holes placed in a particular spot, etc... Were these just visual/stylistic elements or is there something about the construction of the guitar that feeds the sound/playability.
(disclaimer, I can strum some chords but I know NOTHING about actually playing a guitar...)
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@andrewthomas said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
I know it is about 4:30 AZ time, but I am going to keep going if that's okay! It is a lot of fun reliving these stories.
This is your show buddy. Travel through your mind and tell us stories. You're welcome to pick up the thread in the future too if that suits you. It's here to be written and read.
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@andrewthomas said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
@uconnwes said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
Why did Brian need the Raven built say vs. sticking with Gibson or a PRS HollowBody?At first, I was more convinced that Brian needed a custom guitar more than I think Brian was. I do not believe that any one player will ever find a perfect guitar that does everything they want over their whole career as a musician. It is why many people own so many guitars. Sometimes you just need a telecaster in the studio to get that sound that fills the space just right for one particular song. Sometimes you play your 339 and you end up with the Pizza Jam because you’re sort of persuaded to play lower on the fretboard with that guitar.
I do think having a custom guitar is the closest thing you can get to that ideal or that compromise between more than one “favorite” guitar. You could buy five $1500 guitars over so many years, or you could get one really nice custom guitar that you'll always want to play.
Brian had never owned or really even played a fully hollow body electric with a floating bridge and tailpiece. However, it didn’t take long watching him play before I knew that he could bring out all the tone and resonance potential that comes with a hollow body and also have the technique to tame it on a loud stage. So knowing that and knowing Brian needed 24 frets (because he uses them all), you’re not many choices on the factory-built market. You may be able to get PRS or Gibson to do a custom shop guitar, but then you’re potentially in the $10,000 price range anyways. I think the relationship Brian and I built over the first year was essential in the creation of the Raven.
I could really talk for days about the differences between a high-production, factory-made guitar vs. one built by a individual luthier. I can follow up later if anyone is interested in that discussion.
You talk... we listen. I'll say again, tell stories. This is a world so many of us know nothing about but we can connect to in an extremely personal way. So hearing the why of what we feel is really cool. At least for me.
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@andrewthomas said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
@dontjudgedave said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
> How did you get started as a Luthier?Thank you for your kind words!
My great-grandfather was a violin maker, and much of his unfinished violins were left to my grandfather. My grandfather was an amazing craftsman and could fix or build just about anything, but for some reason he never followed in his father's footsteps.
So growing up, there was always this unfinished history living in my grandparent's basement that I was very interested in. During my holiday visits, I’d secretly take down the violins and go through old boxes and look at all the small handmade tools. This definitely planted a seed in my head at a very young age.
There was one summer in my college years where my cousin and I bought a book, the bare minimum hand tools needed, and all the woods needed and attempted to build a classical guitar from scratch. We never finished that guitar, and I think my cousin still has all the parts laying around his house. At that point, I felt like I needed a more formal educational environment in which to learn this trade.
In 2009, I sold most of my possessions bought a truck, and hauled a small trailer from Lincoln, NE down to Phoenix in 2009 and began schooling a Roberto-Venn. After that, I worked for a local repair shop for a few years where I met Michael Collins. Mike and I started collaborating as luthiers, and he showed me everything he knows about Selmer Maccaferri guitars (gypsy jazz acoustics) and arch top guitars. We also joined forces and built and experimented with high-end fingerstyle steel string acoustic guitars. Check out Leuka Guitars to see those.
In 2013, I met Brian and Spafford, and you know that story now…
Wow! This blows my mind. The idea that this is in your blood... and to see the way you pursued it. I could tell you similar stories about engineering, and specifically software engineering, in my own family.
It's amazing how we follow in our families footsteps... as if our fates were spelled out for us long before.
I love too that you went "all in" on this dream that you had since you were little. I'm sure that the Spafford boys would tell you that they had similar moments. Each of them committing to manifest an impossible dream. I mean, if you told the kids at school when you were young that you were going to make guitars... that sounds like a fantasy... but if you will it... it is no dream.
Thank you for taking on the risk and pursuing your dream. That says a lot about who you are as a person.
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@dontjudgedave said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
I have been very interested for a long time (built a few parts-casters and lots of guitar rewiring) but never a full build. Would you suggest schooling? I previously looked into Roberto-Venn out in Phoenix but couldn't justify the cost after spending so much on an art degree (not to mention loan repayment has me stuck at my current job). Or is this something better learned through apprenticeship?I would definitely suggest schooling. I know it is expensive, but you’ll find ways of paying off the loans. Roberto-Venn is a great school to start, especially if you have never really sharpened a chisel or used a bandsaw. It is a crash course (5 months/40+ hours a week in the shop) so you really learn a lot very quickly. Many well-known and successful luthiers got the start there, and that helps getting your foot in the door elsewhere.
A lot of builders also get their start working in a repair shop. Though it doesn’t seem as exciting, you do get to examine dozens of different guitars per week and get an idea of each makers building philosophy. Sometimes that means getting baffled by ingenuous ideas that you may never comprehend and sometimes it means learning how the sausage gets made and how could they ever put that big of a price tag on that guitar.
I also think you should apprentice everywhere you can. Challenge your perspective as much as possible. Every luthier has developed unique techniques and some will make sense to you and some won’t. I definitely incorporated many different techniques and ideas in the creation of the Raven.
Read every book/article you can get your hand on about building. If there is anything I’ve learned over the years is that what I don’t know about building guitars is greater that what I do know. I believe that will always be true, and I kind of like that about this constantly-growing trade.
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@andrewthomas that's really awesome thanks for the info! Would love to pull the trigger some day and try my hand at building. Raven is really awesome, always surprised by how much pop and twang Brian is able to get out if it compared to other hollowbodies I've heard.
I think someone else asked but is there any specific songs/sets You've heard that the tone blows you away?
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@andrewthomas said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
...Read every book/article you can get your hand on about building. If there is anything I’ve learned over the years is that what I don’t know about building guitars is greater that what I do know. I believe that will always be true, and I kind of like that about this constantly-growing trade.
Greatness is, in part, recognizing what you know as well as the incredible depth of what you don't know. I had a professor that used to insist we call him by his first name. I once asked him why and he said "Some people get a PhD and they think they know everything. Others realize they've climbed the hill and when they look around they see all the other countless hills that are still there to be climbed."
I think too, that mastery comes from passion. The Spafford boys didn't become great because they knew they had to practice. They practiced because it was their passion. I remember Cam telling me that he is obsessive about playing. That that's what he does with his free time. I can see too, in my life, the way that building Spaffnerds has contributed to my overall skills at being a software engineer. If you want to transcend good and attain great you have to breathe the skill you're in pursuit of. It's clear as day that that's true for you Andrew.
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@andrewthomas said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
@dontjudgedave said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
I have been very interested for a long time (built a few parts-casters and lots of guitar rewiring) but never a full build. Would you suggest schooling? I previously looked into Roberto-Venn out in Phoenix but couldn't justify the cost after spending so much on an art degree (not to mention loan repayment has me stuck at my current job). Or is this something better learned through apprenticeship?I would definitely suggest schooling. I know it is expensive, but you’ll find ways of paying off the loans. Roberto-Venn is a great school to start, especially if you have never really sharpened a chisel or used a bandsaw. It is a crash course (5 months/40+ hours a week in the shop) so you really learn a lot very quickly. Many well-known and successful luthiers got the start there, and that helps getting your foot in the door elsewhere.
A lot of builders also get their start working in a repair shop. Though it doesn’t seem as exciting, you do get to examine dozens of different guitars per week and get an idea of each makers building philosophy. Sometimes that means getting baffled by ingenuous ideas that you may never comprehend and sometimes it means learning how the sausage gets made and how could they ever put that big of a price tag on that guitar.
I also think you should apprentice everywhere you can. Challenge your perspective as much as possible. Every luthier has developed unique techniques and some will make sense to you and some won’t. I definitely incorporated many different techniques and ideas in the creation of the Raven.
Read every book/article you can get your hand on about building. If there is anything I’ve learned over the years is that what I don’t know about building guitars is greater that what I do know. I believe that will always be true, and I kind of like that about this constantly-growing trade.
Thanks for the encouragement! I came really close to pulling the trigger and selling everything to go back to school for it. Really wish I got into customizing sooner than I did as it's definitely harder to commit to that now. I've got some friends out in AZ now so the ideas been coming up in my head more glad to hear good things about Roberto Venn too as that was my top choice
You rock, man! Hope to see more guitars from you in the future. Have you ever considered doing a bass for Jordan?
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@damian preach it buddy, no shit
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@damian sometimes I tell my employees, “I can’t tell you what greatness is, but when you’re doing it...I’ll let you know”
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@damian In guitar making, you are dealing will once living beings. Wood is organic and no two pieces of wood are perfectly alike, even if cut from the same tree. Some woods are less dense, some are stronger, and that can make certain species of woods ideal for guitar making. All woods, however, will follow the laws of physics. All objects, including plates of wood, will resonate at certain or multiple frequencies based on the many unique properties of those woods and wood in general. And you can make that piece of wood slightly thinner and it will complete change its resonant frequencies.
I could really go on forever about this, but basically I think that if you pay attention to these properties and measure them very carefully throughout each step of the process, you can begin to control the end result more and more. I’ll never know if it is truly going to “work”, or what perfectly working really means, but I can guarantee that with each build that I am heading in the right direction of maximizing a woods potential to move and create sound.
This takes a lot of planning, time, and research (and a lot of math!). When you have to make a guitar that costs $90, you have to make hundreds in a week, and so this sort of thinking is the last thing on your agenda. Even $1000+ guitars, you just cant afford the cost doing all these extra steps to maximize each guitars potential.
Now I will say that sometimes all the stars align and a factory will produce a guitar that sounds AMAZING! All the woods were cut and manipulated just right and they all ended up on the same guitar. Of course, this sort of thing is incredibly rare and more often that, many guitars are produced that don’t work very well , or even close to their maximum potential. In my opinion, that is just a lot of wasted wood.
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Oh you know exactly which parts…
I’m a sucker for that guitar played clean…songs like Hollywood, Sweet, Legend, and recently Radio.
Brian coming out solo and playing The Man was pretty special for me.
The Postman peak at the end is always amazing - Brian will bend what I think is the highest note of the song, and then shortly after he will go higher… and then higher.
I always enjoy the intro to Ain’t that Wrong.
Alternate ending…al of it
Beautiful day - when Brian comes in heavy on the solo. I guess that applies to many songs...When the crowd feeds off the band and vice versa, it really shows in Brian’s playing. It's also great to see Brian really put his whole body into playing that guitar. We all know Brian’s dance moves and when he’s really having a blast up on stage.
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Ok I have to go! I have to go teach a class now. This has been really great for me and I hope for you all as well. I'm so sorry if I didn't get to your question, but I absolutely will pick up where I left of either tonight or later this week. Thank you all! Bye for now...
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@andrewthomas thank you for an excellent reply. Very very cool.
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@RadiantDarkness what show was that? I'd like to add it to the show notes for that show. Seems an important part of 'spaffistory.'
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@damian said in Q & A: Wednesday 1/10, 5PM Eastern - Andrew J. Thomas, Luthier and Creator Of The Raven:
@RadiantDarkness what show was that? I'd like to add it to the show notes for that show. Seems an important part of 'spaffistory.'
I remember listening to that show on Archive ... I want to say it was a holiday show, a Halloween or New Years...?
